Learning to Be Better
An interview with Kai Whiting & Leonidas Konstantakos, authors of the book Being Better: Stoicism for a World Worth Living In
Interview
An interview with Kai Whiting & Leonidas Konstantakos, authors of the book Being Better: Stoicism for a World Worth Living In
The below is an interview with Kai Whiting and Leonidas Konstantakos for their newly released book, Being Better: Stoicism For a World Worth Living in. We previously reviewed their book which can be read here.
So to get started, tell us a little bit about yourselves. How did you become interested in philosophy and what about Stoicism resonated most with you? And how did you two meet to eventually decide to collaborate on this book together.
Leo: I became interested in philosophy at an early age as a part of my interest in the history of the ancient world generally. Stoicism particularly resonated with me following my two tours in the Iraq War. Stoicism is a philosophy of life that centralizes virtue and communion with nature (humanity and the cosmos), and yet doesn’t promise a life of worldly success, comfort, or pleasure. There is no fame or trophy for living a Stoic life and this kind of toughness and austere nobility was something that I found quite attractive and still do.
Kai: We haven’t met in person. We were hoping to, but COVID happened while we were writing our book. I first reached out to Leonidas after I read his article called “Would a Stoic Save the Elephants” on the Modern Stoicism blog. I knew that we had to find a way to work together, and I am glad that we did. We first started working together on academic articles. Our first article was where we (and other co-authors) first introduced the “environment” as a circle of concern… The book came much later!
I loved that you continuously came back to the idea of our actions being virtuous. You write: “Virtue does not exist in a vacuum; it is revealed by our behavior and interactions and relationships with others.” And later in the book, “virtue and vice are made manifest in our daily life through the decisions and actions we take.” I think this is often overlooked, that in certain situations, possibly around others, we can consciously become virtuous for the appeal of it but maybe when we’re alone, we revert to some unhealthy tendencies. What about the Stoic ideal of virtue do you see people getting wrong most often?
Leo: Many people confuse virtue for “virtue signaling,” i.e. looking like you are being virtuous rather than working on becoming virtuous. The Stoics made virtue the goal for no other reason than because it is central to flourishing human life. In fact, the ancient Stoics often discuss why there is no need to signal to others that you are striving toward virtue. They call us instead to act appropriately, humanely, and (contrary to much of contemporary social behavior) discretely.
Kai: I agree with Leo. I would also say that many people focus on the dichotomy of control as opposed to virtue. The problem is that this concept is a modern one and makes no sense if it isn’t rooted in being prosocial and in doing what’s right for the right reason. We shouldn’t just decide what we think is up to us but we should arrive there upon applying reason. In most instances, this requires Socratic dialectic with our fellow citizens that make up the cosmopolis.
Too any times people just fall back on “it’s beyond my control” when it comes to social problems, as an excuse to do nothing. Unsurprisingly, they don’t feel the same way when thinking about how they might do 10 pull ups, even though they can currently only do one. They don’t just shrug their shoulders before they have even tried. They work their shoulders and the rest of their body until they are capable of lifting their chin to the bar 10 times. The same process and logic applies to global challenges. Stoicism calls us to ask ourselves what we can do right now to make the moral difference. It amazes me just how quickly people who call themselves “Stoics” willingly give up on widening their agency at the expense of their character.
Do either of you consider yourself practicing Stoics and if so, what are some of the routines you perform to continually be working at the philosophy?
Leo: For better or worse, I hero-worship the Stoics so much that I cannot consider myself to be able to sit alongside them on the porch. I do feel, however, that I am in good company: neither Marcus nor Epictetus call themselves Stoics in their surviving works. For me, it helps to think about Stoicism as a long-gone school of philosophy which ended when the Emperor Justinian made pagan practices illegal.
This means that the ancient Stoics didn’t know everything there is to know (they thought the mind was in the chest, for goodness’ sake!) and, therefore, that we can accept Stoicism while still understanding that the Stoics were people of their times- with all the political, philosophical, and social baggage that entails.
Furthermore, knowing that Stoic philosophy has been revived over the centuries in different ways, allows me to question my own interpretation of Stoic ideas. For example, Justus Lipsius in the 16th century tried to combine Stoicism with Christian metaphysics, with contradictory results. I try to be a little less contradictory. The only time I will accept the word “Stoic” after my name is on my tombstone, if I deserve it.
Kai: For me, being a Stoic is the identity I am most proud of because I have to
work hard every day to acquire it. Unlike, Leo who I deeply respect and love, as if he were my mother’s son, I have no qualms in calling myself a Stoic. I don’t see any ancient or contemporary Stoic as better or worse than me, as to do so is to entirely miss the point. Linked to what we said in Being Better, I am not trying to fill anybody’s shoes and I don’t think anyone should try and fill mine. Being a Stoic is about looking at your strengths and weaknesses and navigating them appropriately to be a better person and make the world a planet work living in.
Being a Stoic is being comfortable in your own shoes, that is to say the path you must walk.
I loved the way you guys combined the historical context of the philosophy with some modern day examples of the philosophy in action. For example, early on you use Pat Tillman and his rejection of a multi-million dollar contract so he could serve his country instead. Were these heroes and examples people you’ve admired and studied from afar? And what have you learned from their courage and bravery in the face of adversity?
Leo: Like the Stoics who admired people like Cato and the Spartans at
Thermopylae, I feel ennobled by those who perform actions approaching virtue even when there is no reward at the end, or especially when punishment, pain, or death awaits them instead. It is a most humbling thing to see that kind of toughness, and it always brings to my mind Epictetus’ thoughts on his own hero, Socrates. To paraphrase, “Even if I can’t be Socrates, I hope not be too much worse.”
Kai: The heroes in Being Better were, for the most part, people we have never
met but who did acts that we believe were worthy of being described as “Stoic”.
Leo reminded me the other day of Epicharis whose story is told by Tacitus, as part of the conspiracy against Nero. She put people who thought themselves as Stoics, including Lucan, Seneca’s nephew, to shame in the way that, unlike Lucan, she chose death over sacrificing others to save her own skin.
You have a line that I loved, “Motivations define character.” I think this is often overlooked by many studying ancient philosophy. To me, you cannot talk about character without speaking of Heraclitus and his famous line, “Character is fate.” Why do you think this idea of character persists throughout Stoicism? For example, you can see a lot of Heraclitus’ influence in the Meditations with Marcus Aurelius.
Leo: Thanks for your kind words! Yes, Heraclitus was a big influence on Stoic
thought in general. Another translation of that famous line, ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ
δαίμων, that I love is, “Humanity is man’s divinity.” This seems to capture the
Stoics’ point that we are part of the rational order of the universe and to be
complete, flourishing, and happy is to improve and perfect this rational character into something that cannot but act prudently, justly, bravely, and temperately.
You’re absolutely right in mentioning the importance of Heraclitus’ thought in
Marcus’ Meditations. I can certainly imagine him during all those harsh German winters he faced, while fighting the Marcomannic wars, with Heraclitus’ poignant words circling his mind: “War is father of all, king of all.” It also humbling to see that in his most private writings (Meditations 8.3), Marcus, a powerful Roman emperor, considers people like Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar as nobodies compared to philosophers like Heraclitus and Socrates.
It seems to me that you had to really put your Stoic training into action in trying to get this book published. I was saddened to see that your agent passed away before the book hit shelves, but as if that was not hard enough, the world was then thrown into a global pandemic. How did you handle such turbulent times?
Kai: John was a wonderful agent. We will always be grateful for the opportunity he gave us to share our understanding of Stoicism with the world. When John died, our thoughts were with his family. We promised ourselves to do all we could to make the best version of the book that became Being Better. I can honestly say that we gave it our best shot.
For those starting out in studying the philosophy, other than Being Better, which books would you recommend someone start studying? Which work had the greatest influence on you?
Leo: The ancients, the ancients, the ancients. I won’t go so far as to recommend never reading the popular, “life-hack” strain of Stoic philosophy making some authors rich these days, but the Stoics should really be read, to the extent possible, in their own voices. So much of what’s out there today is quite individualistic and unconcerned with (or in blatant contradiction to) the Stoics’ virtue ethics, their positions on the equality of moral errors, and their view that natural human affection for our loved ones is the foundation of justice. The beginner might be best off starting with the Stoics themselves: Epictetus’ Discourses and Enchiridion, Marcus’ Meditations, and Seneca’s Letters. Then, when the reader is ready, read a compendium of the Stoics’ philosophy in general (their political, metaphysical and epistemological positions as well as their ethics).
The two books which lay this out best for me are Long & Sedley’s The Hellenistic Philosophers and Inwood & Gerson’s The Stoics Reader. Though perhaps not overly user-friendly to the casual reader, these collections of Stoic writings are indispensable for the serious follower of Stoic philosophy.
Kai: I certainly enjoy work written by AA Long, William Stephens, Julia Annas and Christopher Gill. As for the beginner, I certainly would recommend Simon Drew’s and Steve Karafit’s respective podcasts. The College of Stoic Philosophers does some wonderful work too. In Portuguese, I recommend Aldo Dinucci’s work.
Which Stoic resonates most with you and why?
Leo: This is a tough one. Epictetus is always close to my heart due to his homely manner and his ‘grumpy-old-man’ style of discourse. Also, Cleanthes’ story is beautiful to me: a (probably) brain-damaged boxer who worked difficult night jobs and wrote his class notes on pottery shards and cattle bones because of poverty, but who rose to become the head of the Stoic school after Zeno’s death due to his perseverance. However, these days I am fascinated with Sphaerus, whose story we tell in Chapter 7 of our book. Here was a Stoic who took early Stoicism’s anarchist implications to heart and became involved in a revolution in Hellenistic Sparta. He helped his pupil, King Kleomenes III, reform the public education and socio-political system by incorporating a distinctively tough, Spartan strain of Stoicism. This kind of personal austerity, resilience, and rejection of plutocracy and oligarchy has much to teach us about wealth inequality and socioenvironmental justice today.
Kai: Sphaerus. If Leo ever has a kid, I will kindly ask him to call his son (or
daughter!) by that name.
Do you guys have plans to write another book in the near future?
Leo: Absolutely. There are several more Stoic philosophers of the ancient world whose stories we weren’t able to discuss in Being Better. We look forward to juxtaposing their lives with those of contemporary people whose actions we find to be Stoic in everything but name.
Kai: We kept Seneca out of the first book for many reasons. One of them was
linked to how we foresee the theme of the second one.
Where can people find you guys online?
Kai: You can find me on Twitter @KaiWhiting or join the newsletter at
www.StoicKai.com
Leo: If you message me at Kai’s website I will pick it up there.
You can purchase Being Better where all books are sold.
Please consider helping your independent book shop and ordering a copy in for your local library so that those who have lost their job in the pandemic can still read about Stoicism at less financial cost.
You can read more of Kai and Leo’s work at StoicKai.com and can find Kai here on Twitter.
We send a Stoic meditation every Monday morning directly to your inbox. To sign up to receive our Monday Meditations, click here.
Some links contained herein are Amazon affiliate links. Click here for disclosure.